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Progress, Classical Liberalism, and the New Right | Podcast Highlights

Blog Post | Economic Growth

Progress, Classical Liberalism, and the New Right | Podcast Highlights

Marian Tupy interviews Tyler Cowen about the New Right, the relationship between freedom and progress, and whether classical liberalism is equipped to meet today's political challenges.

Listen to the podcast or read the full transcript here.

Tyler recently wrote a Free Press article titled “Is Classical Liberalism for Losers?” I’m delighted that he agreed to discuss it with me today.

Let’s start with the basics. What is classical liberalism?

Everyone has a different definition. I can tell you mine. If you believe in capitalism, limited government, free trade, sound money, free speech, toleration, and want to do your best to bring about peace, I would consider you a classical liberal.

Now, which of those get emphasized and to what degree? You’ll find differences of opinion.

What distinguishes classical liberals from conservatives and American liberalism?

These words can be so confusing. When I hear the phrase “American liberalism,” I think of a turn that happened in the 1930s with the New Deal and somewhat earlier with the progressive movement, where people who were broadly liberal fell in love with the idea of expanding government as an alternative means of realizing liberal ends. American liberals and classic liberals have a fair amount in common. They both believe in democracy and some form of capitalism. But American liberalism has much more faith in government, does less public choice analysis, and is less suspicious of concentrated power.

Conservatism used to be simpler than it is today. We’re now in the age of Trump, who I would say is not conservative at all. The conservatism I grew up with was religious. It was socially conservative, with particular views on abortion, gay marriage, and social norms, and it often wanted to use the government to enforce those norms. Furthermore, it tended to be hawkish on foreign policy. Now, it’s all so muddled. I’m not sure who it is I should call a conservative. In many ways, the people I used to call American liberals have become the new conservatives. They want to bring us back to what America was under Obama and undo some of these recent Trump revolutions.

What about practical differences? For example, in your article, you note the different way in which classical liberals and non-classical liberals perceive the use of force and the power of the state.

Classical liberals recognize that some government coercion is necessary to enforce property rights and finance some number of public goods. You can debate what those goods are, but there’s going to be some coercion. You’re just very suspicious of that coercion, and you want to keep it to a minimum because you think it corrupts both individuals and institutions.

So classical liberals are not comfortable wielding power, but don’t classical liberals need a strategy to dismantle the administrative state or greatly reduce its power? Otherwise, classical liberal efforts in politics will always be ineffective.

Well, first, the word strategy always makes me nervous. The notion of an aggregate strategy in the sense that maybe the Democratic or Republican party would have one is a mistake. The classical liberal vision has never been, well, we’ll keep on electing our governments for 20 years in a row, and by the end of the 20 years, they’ll have made all the changes we want. Frankly, I don’t think that’s realistic. In history, there are these periodic classically liberal moments. The American Revolution and the collapse of communism would be two of the most visible. They come along every now and then, and they achieve tremendous good when they happen. They’re motivated by classically liberal ideas, but they’re not some kind of continual rule where you just push everything you want through by force. Every now and then, you get your way, and I’m prepared to live with that. I don’t think we’re going to do any better. But still, those revolutions, like the abolition of slavery, can do so much good. We should just totally be on board with trying to bring them about.

Classical liberalism and the industrial revolution seem to be coterminous over the last 250 years. How much of a credit do you give to classical liberalism for the Great Enrichment?

Quite a bit.

Look at the recent example of Poland. It was very poor when communism fell. Now, it’s approaching the living standards of England. It will bypass Japan in a year or two if trends continue. It’s not exactly classical liberal, but it kept capitalism and trade, and it’s part of the EU. Ireland, when I was a kid, was thought of as a third-world country. In some sense, it was. Now, it’s a stable democracy at Western European living standards. What’s making it work is this mix of capitalism, democracy, and toleration.

We must also explain the mechanism through which classical liberalism in economics produces prosperity. Is it simply that classical liberalism gives people the freedom to do what they please with their lives?

While that’s broadly true, I’m not satisfied.

If you look at Latin America, which has seen a lot of liberalization, there’s still some way in which they have failed to solve their human capital problems. I’m not saying I blame classical liberalism for that, but I’m also not sure liberalism has solved that problem. It’s partly social. It has something to do with family relations and family structure. Some East Asian economies that were more interventionist did very well on that problem, but Mexico hasn’t, even though Mexico, in some dimensions, had a smaller government. So, there’s this other element, you could call it culture, family, or society, where you’ll do much better if you have the right cards in your hand.

There are alternative explanations for the Great Enrichment out there. For example, you have somebody like Gregory Clark, who emphasizes the importance of higher IQ amongst the upper classes in England. You have Joe Henrich, who discusses the role of the Catholic Church in banning cousin marriage and basically creating the nuclear family. You have Max Weber and the Protestant work ethic. Why not those other explanations? Why classical liberalism?

Well, I have particular opinions about each of those. On Greg Clark and IQ, I’m simply not convinced by his data. If you look at England today, especially northern England, it seems somewhat below average in conscientiousness. Where did all those genes go? Did they all go to the United States? I’m not sure.

However, I don’t think it’s correct to say classical liberalism is at the root of the success. If anything, classical liberalism was a result of earlier successes. It was a kind of luxury good that people figured out once they got a bit wealthier and a bit more educated.

There’s something fundamental that happened in England that started being measurable between 1620 and 1640 before classical liberalism was that big. It’s some mix of relatively free labor markets, protection from outside invaders, a strong enough nation-state, enough market incentives, something else cultural, hard to put our finger on, and they just got some economic growth that didn’t stop. They get a scientific revolution. And then intellectually, they do great things with that. Classical liberalism is part of the intellectual explosion from the scientific revolution. But the economic growth predates it, in my opinion.

Let’s bring it back to the United States and talk about the techno-optimist titans of Silicon Valley who have risen to prominence over the last few years. Are they classical liberals? And why do you think they have moved from their previously held center-left position?

Well, they’re generally very eclectic thinkers. I’m not sure they were ever center-left in the traditional sense. I think just being in California and having to live under the reign of the woke led to an intellectual rebellion. But I don’t think there’s any easy categorization of where they have ended up as a group. As a group of people, if I had to generalize, they simply change their minds a lot based on data. It’s mostly a good thing. I’m not sure many will ever be classically liberal with capital C and capital L, but they’ve all been exposed to classical liberal ideas and have learned a lot from them.

Many classical liberals are wondering if the cooperation of the Silicon Valley titans with the Trump administration will lead to greater rent-seeking or move society toward greater freedom. What is your impression?

In general, sincerity is underrated as a political motive. However, if you’re asking me to predict what we will actually get from the Trump administration, in some key areas, we will get more freedom. We will also have more corruption and rent-seeking. We’re going to get the bundle of both.

Increasingly, both left and right deny that we Americans are better off today than in the past. Conservatives point to the 1950s, while progressives point to the 1970s as the golden age. Are they right?

No. They’re just wrong. I lived in the 1970s; it was fun, but it was much worse than today. There’s no serious comparison. And I don’t just mean life expectancy, but actual crime rates, what you could afford to buy, how much you could travel. Again, it’s not close.

Let’s assume that we are right that life in America today is much better than it was. We still have to explain why the public perception is so negative.

My thinking is that people prioritize bad news, and we are living in a hyper-competitive news environment. If you want to grab those eyeballs, you have to offer them the worst possible news first. Do you agree?

I agree with that, but I would add that there are a bunch of things that have gotten worse. Deaths from addiction have been rising substantially for quite a while. Teenage mental health is harder to measure, but I suspect it’s worse than it was, say, 20 years ago. A lot of what we build is uglier than in the earlier part of the 20th century. So, some of the negative impressions are true. I just think it’s easier to focus on the bad things than the good ones.

If the news cycle continuously delivers bad news and ignores the good news, is that a market failure? Or is it simply a reflection of human nature?

People often want to read about the bad as a kind of talisman so that they feel protected and that their expectations cannot be dashed on the rocks. Individually, that might be rational, but collectively, the result is people are too pessimistic about their society.

If you write a book saying things are fine, it’s not going to be a best-seller, even if you’re correct. One reason why is that when people have something good, they become anxious because they’re afraid of losing it. So, the way they protect themselves psychologically from that fear is to anticipate that loss and play it out in their minds. Then they feel they’ve done what they can to protect against it. They use things like books and clicking on media stories as a way of producing those psychological defenses.

Critics say that classical liberals are temperamentally incapable of putting up much of a fight when faced with threats from the far left. How do you answer that criticism?

The far left does not rule many countries. There are plenty of things they do in media and academia that are bad, but the American center has done pretty well against the far left. I don’t like a lot of what the far left has done, but it’s not like they’ve taken over everything. It’s just this Trumpian talking point to justify using power to restructure society and the economy toward their own ends. It’s not nearly as bad as those people would have you believe.

It was very interesting that the right in the United States had a complete meltdown right at the time when they were beginning to get some serious successes in public policy, such as, for example, a reversal on Roe v. Wade, a greater degree of educational freedom, and so forth.

Yeah, there’s this tendency on the right to tell people that Harvard is totally corrupt and worthless, and we could just destroy it, and nothing would be lost. I would say that many of the charges against Harvard are correct, but at the end of the day, there’s tremendous value coming out of Harvard, and you don’t want to wreck that.

The current right is not able to bring itself to that point. They’ve talked each other into a state of negative emotional fervor. There’s just this massive collective cognitive defect. You see it also with vaccines. They just all have to be so terrible. They’re killing all these people through heart conditions when we know scientifically that Covid is more dangerous for your heart than the vaccines are. It’s the same pattern again and again. It’s destructive politically and even personally. You see a lot of people on the right driving themselves crazy with these different worries. And often, there is something to the worry, but they just go off the deep end with it.

Is the future of American universities Hillsdale College, meaning not taking any government money? It seems to me that so long as Harvard and other universities take government money, they will be subject to political pressure. That cat is out of the bag.

I don’t think there’s room for many Hillsdale colleges. If you have a small number, they can raise a lot of money on the grounds that they don’t take government money, and I’m all for that. That’s a great business model. But you can’t have 50 schools doing the same thing. There are not enough right-wing donors to go around. So, I think the current model of Harvard will remain. Harvard and other such schools will just be tortured for decades to come, and they’ll be less effective, and their energies and attention will be drained. And that’s all unfortunate. I don’t favor torturing them, but I do recognize that, in large part, they’ve brought it on themselves by viewing themselves as an agent of political change.

Another criticism levied against classical liberals is that liberalism is so free, so open, and so tolerant that it is vulnerable to people who seek to destroy it. How should classical liberals deal with people who refuse to play by civilized rules?

Freedom does mean that Marxists and Kanye West will have freedom of speech. You’ve got to deal with that. You’re not going to get more of what you want by trying to ban those people; it will be used against you. So, there’s this perpetual struggle for more liberty or less liberty. I’m mostly optimistic. I worry about a major war coming to the world, but if that does not happen, the chances are quite good that we will end up as a somewhat freer society over the next several decades.

If you live, for example, in Britain and you encounter men marching through the streets calling for Sharia or advocating for the slaughter of the Jews, is there a space for more than just offering better arguments? In other words, are we destined to live with people who, if they gained power, would bring out the end of the freedoms we cherish?

Well, ethnic enclaves, in some instances, can be quite harmful. I sometimes say the problem with Northern England is it doesn’t have enough suburbs and enough cars. If you have Muslim migrants from, say, Pakistan, put them in the suburbs. It’s what the US has done. We don’t have Pakistani ethnic enclaves. Pakistani per capita income here is quite robust. Assimilation has gone pretty well. I know there are some other differences between the two societies, but this ideal of the European city, where you’re in the center, everything’s walkable, and everyone’s together, can be pretty crummy when you take in a lot of migrants quickly. Northern Virginia is a much better model than, say, Bradford or Birmingham.

Why are Americans so much better at assimilating foreigners than Europeans? Is it the nature of the immigrants themselves, how they are being assimilated, or a combination of the two?

Well, it might be both, but if you take people from India in America, I believe the median household income is $150,000, which would be the highest for any group in human history. The second wealthiest group would be Iranian Americans, who are, I think, in the range of $120,000-$130,000 a year. Some of those are Jews, but mostly they’re Muslims. So it’s selection from within those groups.

Also, the fact that America is more religious than Western Europe actually makes us more hospitable to Muslims. Protestantism and Islam have some funny things in common. And we have freer labor markets. And the US is just a big country where it’s easier to spread out. Suburbs and cars are very healthy things that help people ease their way into a new country. I would say it’s all those factors and more.

Is the fact that we are getting the top of the crop the reason why we are doing better in terms of assimilation?

Well, we’re not always getting the top. There’s a lot of evidence that there’s not, on average, much positive selection from Mexico. We’re getting a typical selection. Many Mexicans have come, and it’s not really the elites who move here; they live in Mexico City. But even then, assimilation has gone reasonably well. It’s been a bigger problem with Central Americans than with Mexicans. So there are a lot of complex factors here, but it seems we do assimilation better even when we don’t have positive selection on our side.

I would also like you to address a criticism of classical liberalism made by Patrick Deneen, who believes that classical liberalism is unsustainable because it depletes the moral and cultural capital it inherited from pre-liberal traditions. So, as classical liberalism progresses, it undermines the very conditions—such as trust, civic virtue, and shared norms—that allow classical liberalism to function in the first place.

What do you think about that?

What’s the evidence? The forms that trust takes always change. We live in a world where you stay in an Airbnb or walk into an Uber and don’t think twice about it. That’s a form of trust. At the same time, the people who live across the street from me, I couldn’t tell you what their names are. I do kind of trust them just because they’re in the neighborhood, but who knows?

If you ask, “Do we see the Western world collapsing because there’s not enough trust?” I don’t see that. I do see a huge problem in our politics, and I don’t know how to fix that, but I also see a lot of ways in which trust keeps on going up.

Blog Post | Tourism & Leisure

The World Cup Is Putting American Abundance on Display

Four policy lessons we can take from our visitors’ viral moments.

Summary: The 2026 World Cup has highlighted the remarkable abundance of everyday life in the United States, as international visitors have enthusiastically embraced experiences that many Americans take for granted. This viral phenomenon reflects the country’s high standard of living while illustrating how economic dynamism, open markets, and private enterprise contribute to widespread prosperity and hospitality. The influx of foreign visitors also demonstrates tourism’s value as both a major economic export and a source of American soft power, strengthening international goodwill through personal experiences rather than government efforts.


As briefly mentioned in my last column for The Dispatch, World Cup tourists’ repeated astonishment with everyday American abundance has become a viral sensation—and in a very good way. Seemingly not a day goes by without some happy foreign soccer fan raving on social media or to the press about quintessentially “American” things—free drink refills, bottomless chips and salsa, ginormous sports stadiums, fancy cars, big houses, ranch dressing, frigid air conditioning, shiny hospitals, etc.—that we consider relatively mundane features of daily life in the United States. (Buc-ee’s, Costco, and Texas Roadhouse have been particularly big hits, and for good reason.)

These viral posts have delighted American onlookers and captured endless media commentary on how the foreigners’ innocent—and often hilarious—observations have helped unite a divided U.S. and remind us locals of just how good we have it. In an era of endless grousing about the U.S. economy—reflected in various surveys of American “sentiment” and sometimes even justified—the ongoing episode has been a welcome, optimistic change of pace and a loud, folk-libertarian reminder that a nation’s capital, policies, and political class are most definitely not the same as its communities and citizens.

The scenes have also raised several noteworthy economic policy points—some good, some ominous—that deserve more attention.

Yes, We Have It Pretty Darn Good

For starters, the amazement of relatively wealthy foreigners—you don’t take weeks off touring America if you’re dirt poor—at relatively middle-class American environments is real-world evidence of our nation’s immense everyday wealth. 

The timing couldn’t be better (and, no, I’m not talking about the A/C-less heatwave in Europe).

As The Economist just documented, earlier this year Nobel laureate Paul Krugman and several other elite economists got into a heated (and very wonky) online debate about whether Americans’ living standards really were zooming ahead of those of our European counterparts.  The main point of contention was how to measure individuals’ purchasing power in both places, with one approach showing an increasing wealth gap and the other (Krugman’s) a relatively steady one. You can see the difference in the chart below: Using a constant “purchasing power parity” adjustment shows France’s GDP per capita—a standard way to measure individual wealth—to be declining versus that of the U.S., while using a “current PPP” adjustment shows little long term change, and thus a different wealth narrative.

As someone who loves both visiting foreign countries and returning home to my American creature comforts, I freely admit my biases in this debate. But both sides do raise some legitimate issues about how we should measure living standards across countries, as well as what should be measured. Overall, the debate has been delightfully intense and catty—at least for nerds like me.

Yet, as The Economist points out, both sides also seem to agree on a few things: First, Europe is growing more slowly than America, thanks in large part to the economic dynamism and tech-fueled productivity here. Second, even Krugman’s pro-Europe data (see chart above)—along with many other sources—show Americans to have higher average wages and more disposable income (yes, even after accounting for out-of-pocket healthcare costs) than the average European in most places (yes, there are exceptions), due to our superior labor productivity and their leisure choices. Third, and most importantly, both sides want to support their reading of the data with an “eye test”—i.e., visiting each place and just looking around—that the economists believe will confirm their own American/European wealth story. 

Hilariously enough, thousands of European World Cup tourists—along with ones from Japan and other countries, too—have performed just that test, mere days after the economists proposed it. And the result is an absolute rout for Team America:

There are many reasons for the foreigners’ astonishment. (A big one, in my opinion, is that these folks are seeing parts of Real America, especially in the Sun Belt and Midwest, that foreign tourists rarely visit, yet—as we’ve discussed here repeatedly—allow not-rich Americans to live very comfortable lives.) And, to be sure, not all the astonishment is genuine. 

But a lot of it obviously is, and at its root lies the Great American Prosperity Machine. Deal with it, haters.

Capitalist “Charity” Is Still Good

Another fascinating and wholesome part of the foreigners’ U.S. experience has been the outpouring of support they’ve received from both normie Americans—workers, neighbors, random passersby, etc.—and a wide range of American celebrities and companies. Most notable in this regard has been German soccer (fußball) fan Freddy, whose daily adventures in Middle America have earned him a giant online following and a Forrest Gump-like amount of in-kind support from pro sports teams, hotels, airlines, and a smattering of famous athletes, entertainers, and politicians (including at least one sitting governor who volunteered to help Freddy attend Germany’s game in Toronto after a flight cancellation). Freddy’s experience is unique, but only in terms of its magnitude: A wide range of U.S. businesses, municipalities, and influencers have rolled out the red carpet for these happy foreign visitors, greatly adding to the entire feel-good experience.

Unsurprisingly, this support has led dismissive cynics to explain that, actually, a lot of it is just a selfish attempt to boost sales, brands, and online engagement instead of genuine generosity and kindness. Some of those allegations are clearly false, but the correct ones are hardly worth complaining about. Instead, they evoke yet another lesson from Adam Smith: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

Scholars (ahem) often apply this quote to explain that “selfish” market transactions among free people are not only mutually beneficial but also can have broader social benefits and generate the wealth individuals need to perform charity (which Americans do a lot of, by the way). But Smith’s famous line also often applies to many “charitable” acts by corporations and celebrities: While maybe not motivated by pure altruism, these efforts are often a strategic effort to drive long-term profitability by improving brand reputation, attracting customers and workers, and generating more sales. 

There’s little reason to view such motivation as unseemly. First, the act still makes people better off in some way (and often entertains and encourages onlookers, too), so who cares whether it was done for “benevolent” or “selfish” reasons? “Dinner,” in Smith’s terms, still gets served. Second, it’s usually impossible to say why these “charitable” people and firms decided to help Freddy (and any others in need)—and it’s usually a combination of both sympathy and self-interest/promotion. On the latter motivation, see point 1 and Smith above. On the former, check out his other book.

Tourism as a Massive US Services Export (And Source of “Soft Power”)

Admittedly, the World Cup visitor story isn’t all wine and roses, and there are—as noted—some less-optimistic policy lessons buried in here, too. For one thing, all these visitors are a stark reminder of the economic and geopolitical value of foreign tourism—and its recent, policy-driven decline here in America.

As we discussed last year, one of the more interesting and unfortunate results of Trump’s tariff wars, deportations, and related overseas antagonism (threatening to invade Greenland, calling Canada the “51st state,” etc.) has been foreigners’ independent retaliation against U.S. goods and services. And tourism—a U.S. services export—has been the trend’s most conspicuous victim. According to a May 2026 Congressional Research Service report, in fact, international visits were down in 10 of 12 months last year, with the only increases coming before Trump took office (January) and due to an abnormally late Easter (April):

This drop, in turn, hurt lots of American businesses and likely reduced U.S. economic growth last year by billions of dollars:

According to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, in 2023, travel and tourism (both domestic and international) accounted for approximately 3% of U.S. gross domestic product (GDP). According to the World Travel and Tourism Council (WTTC), a nonprofit organization that advocates for and researches global tourism, international visitor spending in the United States was approximately $176 billion in 2025, a 4.6% decrease from 2024. WTTC further noted that GDP for the travel and tourism sector increased 4.1% globally in 2025 from 2024 but grew 0.9% for the United States.

On the bright side, CRS goes on to note that the World Cup could boost foreign visits and GDP growth in 2026, and—judging from the packed bars/restaurants and sky-high prices for match tickets, airline fares, and hotel rooms—you can easily see why. Even with a few embarrassing visa-related snafus, the monthlong event has been going pretty smoothly so far and is forecast to attract almost 1.25 million international visitors, each expected to spend more than $5,000 (nearly twice the typical international tourist). None of that erases the roughly $12.5 billion in lost international visitor spending that WTTC projected for 2025, but it’s still a welcome rebound—especially for the smaller American businesses that depend heavily on foreign tourist spending each year.

The scenes of international comity surrounding the World Cup in 2026 are also a vivid, real-time reminder of how U.S. tourism is a market-based source of America’s “soft power,” improving the United States’ image abroad and advancing U.S. geopolitical objectives without spending taxpayer dollars (or doing stuff far worse than just that). Scholars call this the “contact hypothesis,” i.e., the notion that person-to-person encounters can affect overseas perceptions of a country in ways that no government messaging campaign or foreign aid package can match. World Cup visitors’ ecstatic consumption of everyday Americana is soft power in (mostly) organic form, with our culture, hospitality, and abundance doing the diplomatic work that American government officials can’t (or won’t) do.

To be clear, the goodwill America earns from Waffle House, Bass Pro Shops, Fenway Park—and the Americans who live and work near these and other iconic spots—doesn’t automatically translate into durable shifts in foreign acceptance of U.S. policy. But at a time when America’s global image has taken a few (ahem) hits, having a million-plus foreigners document their travels and return home as amateur American ambassadors is a welcome development, reminding people everywhere that the words of one guy in the Oval Office don’t represent a 350 million-person country. 

The only question is whether the foreign tourism boost—and good vibes—can continue after the World Cup ends. The answer, unfortunately, will probably not be in Costco’s hands.

Seeing the Linkages Between Trade and Peace

Relatedly, all these good vibes are a nice reminder of one of the ways that trade—in this case both foreign tourism and global sports entertainment—can help encourage peace. As I documented in a 2020 paper, a wide body of research finds that heightened foreign trade can meaningfully reduce (but not eliminate) the chances of armed international conflict through several channels: 

First, by making countries more commercially interdependent, trade encourages these nations to avoid war or other large-scale armed conflicts (which could impose substantial economic losses). Second, trade and commercial bargaining are more cost-effective than war as a means of resolving disputes with, or obtaining resources from, another country. Third, trade increases material prosperity (e.g., goods, services, investment, ideas) and promotes mutual tolerance and understanding. And fourth, free trade can limit the political power of domestic constituencies that may benefit from increased conflict.

Recent studies reinforce these conclusions. One finds a strong causal “peace dividend” from trade generally, i.e., that a doubling of bilateral trade reduces the probability of militarized conflict by roughly 30 percent. Elsewhere, a recent survey of almost 2,000 Japanese firms finds they routinely pushed for diplomatic solutions to supply-chain disruptions involving allies and adversaries alike—new support for the concept of “commercial peace,” i.e., that global businesses have powerful incentives to oppose wars that might harm their facilities (or, you know, kill their customers).

Regardless of the driver, however, the outcome is clear: While global economic integration can’t eliminate armed conflicts, policies that liberalize trade can make peace among nations more likely—especially when compared to the isolationist, antagonistic alternative the U.S. government is pursuing today.

In their modest but viral way, the million-plus foreigners now cheering in American bars are making a similar point.

A version of this article was published at The Dispatch on 6/25/2026.

Blog Post | Economic Growth

The Myth of American Decline | Podcast Highlights

Chelsea Follett interviews Michael Strain about how populism could kill the American dream.

Listen to the podcast or read the full transcript here.

Joining me today is economist Michael Strain, Director of Economic Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute and a professor at Georgetown University’s School of Public Policy. He is the author of The American Dream Is Not Dead: But Populism Could Kill It and co-author of “Have You Heard the Good News?” an essay in The Free Press that will be the main subject of our discussion. Michael, how are you?

I am well. Thanks for having me.

Let’s walk through this piece. You say that “yes, we have real problems, but widen the aperture, and you’ll see that there has never been a better time to be alive.” Tell me about that.

I think that is self-evidently true. It’s true whether you look at economic outcomes or broader measures of quality of life. But it’s a very controversial statement. Opinion leaders, commentators, and politicians from both parties seem to agree that things are very bad and were much better in the past.

You say all this doomsaying feeds into the populist moment we are living in, and it comes from both sides. Are we living in a populist moment?

I do think we’re living in a populist moment.

There’s always been a populist strain in American politics, but it was amplified by the 2008 crisis. Pat Buchanan’s message from his 1990s presidential campaigns and Donald Trump’s message from 2016 are very similar. Bernie Sanders’ message from the 1990s was very similar to his 2016 campaign. The financial crisis exacerbated this populist impulse: the share of the GOP primary electorate that voted for Buchanan in the run-up to Super Tuesday was around 25 percent; for Trump in 2016, it was around a third.

The financial crisis was global, and in fact we’ve seen a rise of populist politics globally—across Western Europe and the United Kingdom, for instance—that’s quite similar to what’s been happening here at home. My sense is that populist sentiment was reverting to its baseline by 2019, but then the pandemic stirred up a lot of populist sentiment. One characteristic of populism is that it pits the people against the elites, and the elites made a lot of mistakes during the pandemic, such as keeping kids out of school and faulty public health guidance. That exacerbated the populist sentiment.

Tell me about horseshoe theory and the parallels you see between a figure like Zohran Mamdani on the left and a figure like Josh Hawley on the right.

Horseshoe theory is the idea that in a two-party system like ours, the far left and the far right tend to more closely resemble each other the further you go toward the extremes. You see it in support for specific policies: both the far left and the far right are more supportive of organized labor than the center left and center right. They are more supportive of using the tax code to penalize certain corporations or industries. But you also see convergence on a deeper level, where the far left and far right are both less supportive of the US Constitution and our Madisonian system than the center left and center right.

I think now is a good time to ask you what exactly you mean by populism, because people use that word in different ways.

I think of populism as characterized by three big things. The first is pitting the people against the elite. The second is a turn inward: the idea that the US should be economically self-sufficient, that globalization and international trade are bad, and that the US should be very skeptical of immigration and isolationist in foreign policy. The third is a deep pessimism about the current state of the country and prospects for the future.

That populist mentality gives rise to zero-sum grievance; the idea that for me to do better, you have to do worse. For the people to do better, the elites have to be made worse off. For native-born workers to do better, there have to be fewer immigrant workers.

The left and right define “elites” differently, with some overlap. Who are the elites being defined as the enemy by the populists on the right and the left?

Both left-wing and right-wing populists are skeptical of big business, rich people broadly defined, and the media. One important difference is that right-wing populists direct a lot of hostility toward immigrants in a way that left-wing populists don’t. They wouldn’t say immigrants are part of the elite, but they would say the elites are encouraging and allowing large immigrant inflows, which is bad for native-born Americans.

The narrative on both sides is that our economic system, and the political system that supports it, has been fundamentally broken for decades. That system exists to serve the interests of the elites, and, because society is zero-sum under their view, if the elites are doing better, the people are doing worse.

There’s disagreement among populists on the right and left about what needs to be done to fix the system, but they agree that whatever replaces it should be much more intrusive. They agree that market outcomes should be altered much more substantially and that economic liberty should be much more curtailed.

So according to this narrative, life in the United States today is terrible, and we need to burn down the system. But you write that there has never been a better time and place to be alive than in the United States today. Lay out the facts for me.

That’s self-evident from the data, especially if you focus on economic outcomes.

Over the last three decades, inflation-adjusted wages for typical workers have increased by 44 percent. Inflation-adjusted household incomes are way up as well. The wealth of the typical household, after adjusting for inflation, has more than doubled over the last three decades. Consumption is at an all-time high as well.

We should care more about the poor than we care about the rich, but if you look at low-income Americans, the bottom 20 percent or bottom third, their outcomes over the past several decades have improved faster than outcomes at the median. So, the evidence is very strong that from an economic perspective, there’s really never been a better time to be alive.

What about inequality?

There’s no question that inequality is a lot higher today than it was in the ‘70s, but most of that growth happened in the ‘80s and ‘90s. My reading of the evidence is that over the last 15 years or so, inequality has either stagnated or declined. Wage inequality has been declining in recent years, and I’m comfortable asserting that we’ve seen a reduction in income inequality over the last decade or two.

I would add that people overstate the importance of inequality. Inequality growth was really rapid in the ‘80s and ‘90s, but people didn’t care about it because average wages were growing quickly, just not as quickly as incomes at the top. Inequality was falling in the decade after the financial crisis, but people were much more concerned about it because the 2008 financial crisis and the Great Recession were such traumatic events. So, I don’t think inequality is really what people are reacting to.

You also discuss non-economic measures of well-being, such as crime and life expectancy. Tell me about some of those.

The story is much the same when you look at broader outcomes. The rate of violent crime has fallen dramatically in the past three decades. Life expectancy dropped in 2020 and 2021, but it’s now once again trending in the right direction. Access to information has obviously never been higher. Leisure time, in terms of paid time away from work, has never been higher. Life in general has also become much safer; you’re much less likely to die of an illness or in a car accident than in previous decades.

Now is actually a particularly strange time to be arguing that our outlook is bleak and life was better decades ago. Think about what artificial intelligence is likely to do for drug discovery, for curing diseases, and for educating kids. We are at the beginning of an age of marvels. We’re likely to see astonishing innovations and improvements in quality of life in the next two decades.

You write that populist leaders actually seem to look down on American workers and households by behaving as if everyday people don’t benefit from material prosperity, low prices, or relatively safe and comfortable jobs.

Can you make that argument comprehensible?

Take the argument that more people should make things with their hands. Many people hear that and think, “Okay, I can kind of get that.” But think about the implications in an economy with a 4 percent unemployment rate. If we’re moving more people into manufacturing, we’re moving people out of services, and service workers earn more on average than manufacturing workers. So, the argument is really that people should move from a higher-wage industry into a lower-wage industry. That may be inconvenient for the populists chasing this vision, but it is just a fact.

There’s an attitude here on the part of populists that it’ll be better for people to work in an industry they have not chosen, that pays lower wages, in a job that’s less physically comfortable or safe than their current job. That strikes me as patronizing and condescending, and antithetical to the way Americans should expect their government to treat them.

How does this piece relate to your book The American Dream Is Not Dead?

The message and arguments are quite similar. The view that the American dream is dead is quite common, with a large focus on the economic components of the American dream, and I don’t see it that way.

You do fear that if enough people believe the dream is dead, they could kill it — that’s the subtitle of your book. How could populism kill the American Dream?

The populist diagnosis of what ails the United States is fundamentally wrong, and the policies that flow from that incorrect diagnosis are going to be harmful. A big trade war or big new social programs or nationalization would be very bad for typical workers and households: wage growth would slow, real wages might even decline, and you’d see a reduction in the rate of innovation and productivity growth. More fundamentally, there’s a real threat to our system of democratic capitalism if the government stops respecting the role that markets play in advancing prosperity and feels generally less constrained about stepping in.

Finally, if you introduce the pervasive belief that the game is rigged, that hard work doesn’t pay off, that typical workers can’t get ahead because the elites are expropriating all the economic gains, you dim people’s aspirations, reduce work effort, and make people less tolerant of risk. You end up creating some of the very problems the populists are incorrectly arguing currently exist.

One thing you do in this book is invite two ideological opponents to provide rebuttals, one from the populist left and one from the populist right, so readers can decide for themselves. One of those arguments is that despite all your data points, there are still real segments of the population who are economically struggling. How would you respond?

There’s no question about that, and we should be focusing our energy on those pockets of problems. If you’re a 50-year-old man who did not graduate high school and has recently been laid off, you’re in a tough spot, and public policy should be doing more to connect you with opportunities.

There have also been time periods of real struggle. 2008 to 2014 or so were bad years for lots of households. My goal is not to be Panglossian. Even when times are good, like they are right now, there are groups of Americans and places in America where things are not going well. But part of the problem of populism is that it doesn’t want to focus our energy on those groups or places. It wants to focus on much larger projects like reordering the global trading system or the American healthcare system, and that’s actually to the detriment of the Americans who are really struggling.

The Human Progress Podcast | Ep. 81

Michael Strain: The Myth of American Decline

Economist Michael Strain argues that populism could kill the American dream.

World Bank | Income & Inequality

Global Progress Lifts Six Nations Into Higher Income Classifications

“Since 1987, the global income classification landscape has changed significantly, with the share of economies classified as low-income declining from 30% to 11%. These shifts have not been evenly distributed, however, with some countries moving across income groups much faster than others. This year’s update to the World Bank Group Country Income Classifications shows six countries moved to a higher income category, but each has a different story to tell: a country emerging from economic crisis, an export powerhouse outpacing its peers, and an economy that turned out to be 10% larger than previously thought are just three of them…

This year, none of the countries assessed moved down. Five moved from lower-middle to upper-middle income: Jordan, Micronesia, the Philippines, Sri Lanka, and Viet Nam. One moved from low to lower-middle income: Togo. They reached the same thresholds through very different paths.”

From World Bank.